We have decided to accede to a request for more information about the Spirit World and in particular about lower areas of the Spirit World. We have been concentrating with you in our descriptions of the Spirit World, on conditions which people like yourselves will find when you come over here. Now, other types of people will find some different conditions, and this depends largely upon the expansion which you have exhibited in your material world. By expansion I mean this outgoingness of your spirit to other people around you, it is being open to spirit influence, being aware of the deeper side of life, the spiritual aspects of life.

There are people who are much more closed in, people who limit their contact with other people, the narrow people. The kind of person who will reject other people, perhaps on the basis of race, or creed, or that kind of person - who are rather limited in their approach to life.

There are people who operate only on the material level - they may be friendly and outgoing towards other people, but they have no contact with spirit or with developing their higher mental faculties. So, they are a sort of intermediate type, they have a greater expansion of attitude but it is limited to the material level. They concentrate on their possessions, their work or perhaps the next whatever-they-do-to-enjoy-themselves, trip to the pub, or watching the next television series - that kind of person.

I hope that by now, you will be realising that there are no set cut-off points, so these other types of people will experience something somewhat less inviting than people like yourselves, who have more expansion and more openness. They will find a much more material level in the Spirit World. There will be much more of a continuation of the conditions which they experienced in the material world, this is because they have no other concepts to put there. They will stay in these material conditions for longer periods, similar activities to what they did in the material world. The influence of their guides and helpers will be less evident, and if they have any sort of fear after their physical death, they will be much more liable to certain undesirable entities in the Spirit World.

Just as not everyone in your sphere is holy and saintly, so not every spirit over here is exactly desirable, shall we say. We do not like to use the word 'evil' because all spirit is a manifestation of the Godness, we prefer to use the word 'mischievous'. There are these mischievous spirits and they will play pranks on people, and they will try to influence other people, - and at the moment I am using the word 'people' to denote those people in the material body and those who have passed over. And some of these spirits, if someone is afraid, can take on the shape of that spirit's fear. And this was one of the causes of the rescue which you had last week. Although he had picked up some religious ideas, unfortunately they were very limiting religious ideas and consequently when he came over here he became afraid, because he had not led an exactly ideal life - not that anyone DOES but he had made no effort. And because of his criminal activities he was always afraid of being chased by your police, and so his fear when he came over here was of being chased, and so there were these mischievous spirits who were chasing him, because that was what he was expecting, because he was afraid of it. And he put certain concepts onto them, he knew he was being chased and so they became certain monster concepts which he put on to them.

Now, there are other spirits who, when they come over here find very barren places, it is not even an expression of a material environment. Imagine something, something which you might term a lunar landscape - completely barren, nothing grows there. There are rocks and there are cliffs and this sort of thing. People finding themselves there will not only have had a limited attitude towards other people but they will have been most uncharitable. You could find quite a few rich people here - those who had hung on to their wealth without making any sort of attempt to help those less fortunate than themselves - you could also find people from other economic levels. You may find people who were physically cruel to others - the torturers you have heard about in the near past, for instance, you may find there. The sadistic kind of people, those who haven't even been neutral in their material life, are likely to find themselves in those very barren, very forbidding surroundings, because this is what their lives were like, barren and forbidding, without even the slightest hint of any sort of love, not even for their immediate family. These people may find strange bird-like creatures flying over head - something like the dinosaur era - that is the kind of inhabitants in this area that they will find, such creatures as can exist in such barren surroundings.

Now in this area the creatures that are found there are more of the collective unconscious type - they tend to form them together, and it is somewhat difficult to help these spirits because they are so closed in on themselves. But with this collective unconsciousness forming these particular types of impressions and monster type of things, that is the step out of it, because - this is one of those concepts I know I am going to have difficulty getting over to you - it is a type of community where they are together, they are in this together, and when they start expanding to those around them, some sort of co-operative effort to protect themselves from these monsters which are there, which are really something like your cinema screen projections, they don't have an animating spirit but they move, because of the energy these people are putting into them. This very expansion, that acknowledgement of the others around them, the development of some sort of co-operation between them, is the first step out of it. It's their first step to opening up, the first hope that Spirit can help to lift them up and into the broader Spirit World. There are no set steps to getting out of it, it is all so very various, but it will go through more pleasant areas. As they start expanding so their concepts will start to change, and so their surroundings are clothed with more pleasant layers.

They start with this, as soon as there is some sort of co-operation with others, and they start having - experiencing - perhaps for the first time, the joy of communion with others, and so their attitude is starting - their attitude towards themselves is starting to change. They feel more pleased and consequently their surroundings can become more pleasant, and so they can 'climb out'. Of course the phrase 'climb out' is purely figurative, I trust you understand and remember what we have said about direction. And with this, of course, their concepts of - the same attitudes can be put to the influences they are getting from Spirit. They are beginning to become aware and respond to what their guides and helpers are trying to do to lift them out of this.

And, of course, we are also trying to work on the mischievous spirits. The ones on which forms are put by the (fearful, chased) spirit there. I said before that they are basically not evil, they are still an expression of Godness, but for some reason, at least some of them, have come over here with this rather twisted, warped attitude. They are aware that something is different to when they were in the material body, they realise that they have different powers and abilities, but they haven't realised the true potentiality of what they have. Now, they may have some sort of resentment left over from the material world, they may have a particular prejudice. The most noticeable one which we know is causing some concern in your material world at the moment, would be the racial prejudice, colour of the skins perhaps, and so that kind of mischievous spirit may make a particular point of teasing those people of haunting them, if you like. And there are occasions when the guides and helpers who are working on the victims can also lead or assist the guides who are trying to work on the mischievous spirits, and so when a circle performs a rescue, the type that you had last time, you will also be helping the mischievous spirits, because when they lose their victims, for a little while they don't have a focus, and that is when sometimes the guides can get to them and lead them out of this attitude into more fruitful activities.

Now, all the classes of people that I have talked about tonight, and even some that I have not mentioned, because it is a bit difficult to simply enumerate all the types I am talking about, so please understand I haven't mentioned all of them, are greatly assisted by prayers for them, because when you pray for someone you are sending to them love and concern and that may be the first time they have been sent love and concern, at least in the previous material life. And they can sometimes respond to that. They respond at first with a feeling of awe and amazement : "I can actually receive this love and concern." This is why in the past we have occasionally asked you to deliberately pray for those who you know have led particularly evil lives in your world. You can free them from these barren places and get them into a more productive attitude. Not all are evil people who are in such places. Someone who has enjoyed fighting, and I am talking about someone like the person you would call Genghis Khan - that type of person - I am not specifically saying he is in such a place, but that type of person - could well engage in some sort of fighting in the Spirit World. And that sort of thing can be quite different too. It is even more difficult to stop a spirit having a fight than it is for some of you to stop a person in a body having a good old bout of fisticuffs.

And spirits caught up in that kind of activity particularly need a lot of prayer for peacefulness, for a peaceful attitude, so that they can start to feel the Godness within them. Just as frantic activity in your world can prevent you feeling this, so it happens over on this side. So from time to time, pray for peace for those in the Spirit World.

Now, there is another type of spirit I would like to bring to your attention tonight, and this is the cases who, in your material world, have been psychological victims. They are the ones who, for some reason or another, have developed very negative self-image, very often it is attitudes around them when they were young children, babies, self-concepts that were fed to them by other people, and I also include people in this group, who died in the concentration camps during the last war. Their self-concept was very often completely undermined by the conditions in which they were - the conditions in which they died. They took these attitudes over with them and so also put themselves into barren places, they also can be prey to these mischievous spirits because they died in fear and these mischievous spirits can feed off that fear.

In some ways it is harder to help this group, because at least the others have a strong sense of self, but these don't, and so they don't respond readily to the love and concern. Not always, but in many cases there is a trend with this type that it is hard to get them to accept the love and concern that is sent to them.

Now, tonight, we have brought here some spirits who have attained a certain level of receptivity, and we would like you now to express the love and concern that you have for them.

We would like you to do this tonight using light. So first feel golden light in the centre of the circle. Now see it more amorphous, somewhat like a cloud - but now it is a rainbow - but there are lots of rainbows there - it is multi-coloured - and into that put all the love and concern and compassion that you can - and we will bring these spirits into it, as into a pool, a swimming pool - concentrate on holding those coloured lights there and fill it with your love to focus there. We are trying to help, but always when there is this interaction in the material with the spiritual, this help will be greater. It is not just an additive thing, it multiplies. Where two or three are gathered together in MY name, there I am.

It is not enough to get groups to work together on material problems, you also need to pull through the spiritual influences, the 'name' aspect. It is much the same thing with a healer working on someone in your material world. The healer usually has to undertake certain attitudes, certain approaches in their material life. If there are things there that are causing an obstruction, they may have to alter their food or their drink, or perhaps they have to give up something - smoking is a very common one. And this indicates a certain receptivity and co-operation with spirit so that spirit can work through them more effectively, and this also applies when working on your planet, when growing your food, or trying to actually improve a plant. Some aspects of your planet are easier to improve than others, especially with the scientific knowledge which you have at present. It is extremely difficult for people to change actual landforms, you may be able to alter the composition of the top few inches, but you cannot alter what is deep down. It is also harder for you to affect what is in the air, although you can have some influence there too, I am referring of course, to your rainfall. There are limitations but you can improve things with certain practices - tree plantings for instance will very often attract what cloud happens to be in the area.

So there will always be some limitation on what you can do in the material world. Even the spirits when working in a world as strongly formed as yours, will have some limits. But there is a lot that can be done between the two of us.

We trust that at some time you will reach the level of this work, then you will see. You will be able to see the plant life and its possibilities, and you will be able to, perhaps, assist in the evolution of something. Maybe you will devise something directly yourself, maybe you will simply inspire an earthly scientist, or draw his attention to something that has been there all along. I with you well, for this can be a very interesting phase of your development, it will only be a phase. There are many phases for you to go through in your development back to merging with Godness, and you must not rush any of them. There are things that are appropriate for your stages, accept what is at that stage for you, and do not be in hurry to advance to other stages.

Now, I feel I have talked long enough, perhaps you have some questions.

Question: What happens when you modify a plant with genetic engineering, to a spirit that is controlling the plant, will it require a different spirit or does the one of the original plant take control?

Answer: Plants have not an individual spirit inherent in them. There may be Spirit, or a spirit, interested in that particular plant. Now, if there is a change or development coming it will have with it the influence from Spirit, whether the spirit is directly influencing the plant or influencing one of your scientists. It will not need to be instigated by the spirit, but if it is a useful development then one of the guides of that scientist will have been prompting him how to do it, what to look for, the approach to take. And this will have come about in some interaction between the spirit interested in the plant and the guide of the scientist. It will also need some work on behalf of the scientist, because these inspirations are never put into a blank mind, or into a mind that is not striving or battling with the problem, because you also need the interaction between the human scientist and the plant. And if you read carefully the biographies of your scientists you will always find that those who have had some sort of brilliant insight will have already been battling with the problem. These insights don't come to someone who isn't already involved, because they would not understand the insight and would not know how to apply it.

Question: The crystal radio was invented in two places at the same time.

Answer: This happens all the time as this medium has herself experienced. You will very seldom find that one person alone has been working on something. It has happened, but it is very rare.

Question: The Findhorn experience would be a typical example of Spirit working to stimulate plant growth in circumstances which otherwise wouldn't be suitable. Another example of Spirit working through scientists would be the new practice of cloning plants, making exact carbon copies. When spirits are dealing with different types of plants are they related yet different spirits, one spirit for instance, looking after apple trees and another kind of spirit looking after Eucalypts? Are these spirits in a way self-conscious, or are they more like blind forces? Do they have self-consciousness in the same sense that we have self-consciousness?

Answer: I don't know that I can say that they have self-consciousness in the same sense that YOU have, because these are spirits who are approaching the merging back with Godness, so their awareness of self is somewhat different to yours. They do understand what they are working on in the material world, or working with.

Question: So all the spirits that work on different types of plants would, in a way, be merging with each other, and aware of each other.

Answer: Yes. Particularly those working with what you term the different kingdoms, animal kingdom, the plant kingdom. All those working with plants will be merging with each other. You remember we have explained that your individualities merge together to form a larger being, and you get those merging together to form one still larger. You merge first with those with whom you are compatible, and so the spirits working on the plant life will be compatible spirits, or more compatible with each other. Similarly, with animal species.

Question: When you take spirits working on rather vicious species of animals, say, tigers, lions, they would rather seem to be sharp and rather violent types of spirits, because that is the type that these animals are.

Answer: But remember that they usually cull the inferior animals, the sick, the aged. It is all interacting, interconnected, just as you grow, mature and deteriorate and return back to the earth, so do the animals.

Question: This is the balance of nature, isn't it?

Answer: Yes, that's right. It is the same thing with plants.

Question: Do plants have a sense of being or self, the individual plants? We know there is life force flowing through, but does the plant have any awareness of self?

Answer: The awareness comes with the spirit working, that is, with it. So the spirit has the awareness of what is happening with the plant.

Question: Does the spirit experience any suffering when, for instance, the grass is being eaten by an animal? What does the blade of grass experience in that situation?

Answer: Much the same as your guides experience when you cut yourself. They are aware of it happening.

Question: But they don't feel the pain or anything?

Answer: No.

Question: So there is no pain involved in cutting down a tree?

Answer: No.

Question: There is no karma involved as such?

Answer: It depends on why you are doing it. Now, remember what we have said about karma, it is not an automatic law. Karma only exists to the extent that you agree or believe that something should happen to you in an incarnation, because of something that you have done previously. We keep stressing that you do not have to reincarnate, you can forgive yourself and do what sort of reparation you desire on this side. So, if you feel some sort of guilt for destroying something, to that extent you may have a guilt feeling, it is up to you to decide whether to use that to form 'karma' as you call it, to give yourself some punishment. You need to 'kill' certain plants in order to live. You are the apex of the pyramid and the plants are there provided for your material body.

Question: The same as animals?

Answer: Yes, but they are not necessary to the same extent as the plants. It is possible to do without them (that is, the animal meat) in many parts of your world. In other parts it is not possible.

Question: Having been an Indian in your past life, which is largely a hunting people though you also grew plants of course, corn and so on, there seems to be no real spiritual argument for being a vegetarian.

Answer: No. The reason is - why you kill. Do you kill for pleasure? That would be harmful to your spiritual progression. But if you kill for sustenance or for protection, that is not. The main thing is to keep a healthy body. Without a healthy body your spiritual progress may be hindered. I say, may be, because sometimes you use illness as a form of guilt removing mechanism. But while you are overly aware and attached to your body - and I stress 'overly' because you must give it some care - when you are 'overly' aware of your body your spiritual progress to some extent will be delayed or hindered. You have to give it a proper balance, care for it enough to keep it healthy and to a standard which is considered desirable by your society, so that you are not in any ways discriminated against by other members of your society. If you meet your society's standards you will be accepted more, and you will be more able to influence it, we hope with the spiritual ideas you are developing here. So give it enough attention to attain those.

Question: What is the function to plant life, the plant kingdom, of fermentation into alcohol such as whiskey, beer, etc.

Answer: Fermentation basically has the effect of breaking down substances and rendering them usable to some other aspect in your world. It is just that man has seized on a way of developing that process still further. It is a transformation.

Question: I've quite often wondered about its effect on the human body.

Answer: As you know that effect varies from person to person, and so you are coming back to effects which the incarnating soul has agreed or decided to bring with them. We may suggest that it was perhaps a mischievous spirit that inspired certain people to develop the alcoholic drinks, or taking the natural process a few steps further.

Question: There are some animal species which seem designed to plague and torment other species, such as mosquitoes, fleas, and so on. What kind of spirit would have invented and sustained those? They don't seem to perform any necessary function in life such as fleas on cats and dogs. Are they mischievous spirits?

Answer: They certainly have some influence in their development. To some degree too, some of your incarnating souls have this ideas that this would be a suitable punishment. Of course, things like mosquitoes, their larvae provide food for other species, and some forms of these parasites also form food for other species. But too, it is just another way of Godness manifesting.

Question: How far down the pyramid would whales, dolphins and porpoises come?

Answer: About three-quarters up the pyramid. Very intelligent, like dogs, chimpanzees would be higher than dolphins.

I think, with your permission, I will bring tonight's proceedings to a close. Good night.

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