June, 1989.

Verna: It is a long time since I have been through. How is everyone?

All: Good.

(Verna introduced herself, giving brief biographical details. She explained that one of her jobs now is to look after the group of guides working through this medium.)

Well, since we have only just started up again after a long break we thought that perhaps I should have a word with you, and give you the opportunity of you telling us what you would like from the circle. Are there any particular activities you would like? Anything you would like to try yourself? Anything at all.

(No answer)

Well, let me put it this way - why do you come?

Gina: For the meditation. After an extremely busy week it gives me a chance to unwind. If I meditate at home I end up falling asleep.

Verna: Yes, we know about that. You could try putting your feet in a bowl of cold water.

Gina: Its just that the group structure in meditation helps an awful lot.

Verna: Yes, a lot of people find that the group meditation is much more effective than meditating at home. Of course, eventually, you will get to the point where you can do it in both situations.

Gina: I find that a lot of what the people who come through talk about I've heard before. This is the reason why I come - I like the group focus on meditation - and the rescues.

Verna: Yes, we will work up to that but we have to build up the energy a bit first. I hope you haven't forgotten all the techniques.

Norman: What advice would you give about meditation?

Verna: Don't overdo it. A good time to meditate without falling asleep is early in the morning. Always providing, of course, that you have had enough sleep during the night.

Gina: Its often an effort just getting out of bed.

Verna: Avoid trying to spend hours meditating. I usually advise people to start off with no more than about 15 minutes and they can gradually increase it as they wish.

There is no point trying to spend long periods of time. You will have enough time for that when you come over here.

Norman: Is that just in the morning or in the evening as well?

Verna: Whatever. You should sit comfortably, the position does not really matter - whatever position is comfortable for you. Some people can't manage the Lotus position, it doesn't really matter. Say a prayer. Always put the golden circle of protection around you and always make sure you are closed off afterwards.

Angie: You should just imagine or project that golden light that envelops you.

Verna: Just picture golden light around yourself. Just to prevent any stray spirits coming into your aura. This is one of the reasons why we don't recommend very long periods of meditation. You are usually protected from this in a circle because of the group vibrations the energy builds up and only people who the guides of the circle want to come through can do so.

This is, of course, excluding your own personal guides and helpers - they can always come through. You see, when you start developing when you come on this path, usually your aura lights up and you can become like a light-house, and this can attract lost souls. Now this may be very beneficial to them, and that sometimes will also attract the mischievous type of spirits who will take a bit of pleasure in trying to upset people on this plane. So always put golden light around yourself, and if you ever feel that someone undesirable is trying to attach themselves to you stop meditating by yourself at one. And start picturing yourself with some sort of protection around you. You might like to make it an eggshell, or some people picture a sheet over themselves, or a sort of a glass case. It doesn't really matter what sort of a picture it is, as long as it some sort of a solid protection. And then picture golden light going from your body to that shell and back again, so you have this sort of vibration, and that will strengthen it.

Angie: Why would undesirable spirits want to come into this world?

Verna: Well, they don't know any better. Sometimes its a case of a lost spirit from a different type of society to yours, and they see you behaving in certain ways and they think "No, that is the wrong way to behave". So they try to get you to behave the way you would if you lived in their type of society. Sometimes they are just plain mischievous and want to have a bit of fun with you.

Gina: I find with myself that unless I have my feet very firmly on the ground, if I am not coping with every day life, I can't come here because I get the feeling of being very lost. Whereas when I am coping I get a lot of benefit from coming here.

Verna: Another thing with the lost souls who might try to attach themselves to you - they can only do it with your co-operation. A lot of people don't realise this - you have a door-keeper whose job it is to keep undesirable spirits away from your aura, but you can over-ride your door-keeper. So this can very often happen when you first come into this path, because you get so excited an enthusiastic and you are sort of wide opens to any sort of spirit contact. You have to build up a bit of discrimination, and if you think that someone undesirable is there you have to be very firm with them and tell them to go. Talk to them about going into the light, talk to them about looking around, and if there is somebody there they recognize then go to them and leave you alone because it is your life and you are you. Say " I am I, you are you, this is my life. You have your tasks over there." Be very firm about it and if they still hang around you might have to finish up being with them very rude and telling them to skedaddle very firmly.

Angie: Can you tell me why you chose to look after the circle?

Verna: Well, I felt that it was something to do which would sort of complete me. I haven't yet got to the stage where I have given up my earthly personality, and because I left the material world so young there are still experiences which I wanted to have. I've sort of been able to get them through working with this medium. It just seemed appropriate for me, and our auras, mine and this medium's, were a very close match. You see, all guides when they try to come into the medium, its done by matching the auras and if the auras are too different then the guide can't come through, you see, and you really can't be a guide in that case. Our auras just seemed to match very well. This is why people will very often say " Oh, when that guide was speaking through that medium it was very like that medium's personality anyway. And so they sort of project the idea that it is not a separate person. But you have got to be compatible before a guide can work with you or come through, and this is why rescues are a very special thing because you have to get the auras to match in some way. Sometimes it can be quite difficult, especially if the spirit is unwilling to come through. Sometimes we have to try a little deception.

Angie: What is a rescue?

Verna: That is a lost soul who isn't progressing on our side. And when you come over here, your guides and helpers always try to make contact with you, to look after you, to take you to where you should be going, and generally look after you and introduce you around type of thing. But some people are not receptive. Sometimes it is simply because that person didn't believe in life after death, and so they don't realise they are dead so they keep trying to live in the material world even if it should be obvious to them that they are still alive and not in their old surroundings.

We've had some cases of people who were feeling very guilty about something, and so they sort of set themselves very firm and wouldn't have contact with anyone. We've had some people who were very rigid religiously and followed a very

strict religious path and because what happened over here was very different from what they expected they sort of reject what is going on. They have a very set idea of what it should be like. There are all sorts of reasons for difficulties.

Gina: How is that yogi man? The yogi who came through - who thought everyone had to get up at three in the morning and meditate for three hours or something?

Verna: I haven't seen him for quite a while, actually. But the last time I saw him he was in a much better state.

Gina: We put his nose out of joint quite severely.

Verna: Sometimes a person who has died a horrific death will have problems, because they can't get away from the death situation. They just keep living it over and over again. Eventually everybody will get out of that sort of thing. Eventually every guide will make contact but very often its a lot quicker if we can bring them into the circle because once they are in a body hearing is very difficult to shut out. Its much easier to do it on your side than it is on our side, so the soul more or less has to listen to what is being said, and also the feeling of being in a body again is rather different to the feeling of being over here, and that's part of the healing process. That will very often enable somebody to realise that yes, they have died, and they are still alive, if you see the contradiction. When you have an experienced group of sitters who know how to approach a rescue and reason with them and explain things, it is very often a quick way over the hurdle.

Norman: Would you say generally that these people who you term" lost souls" are people who either by design or accident have not had contact with their own particular guides?

Verna: Not conscious contact. That is a very common occurrence. Usually if you have had any sort of contact with your guides or any sort of psychic experience you will be in a much better state when you come over here. No matter how slight the experience was, it does help in getting over the hurdle.

Norman: So there is some advantage to a certain degree in joining a group or doing your own meditation?

Verna: Oh, yes. Even if it only makes you aware that there is something beyond death, that in itself it is a great help.

Norman: How do you see from your side the promotion of these thoughts and ideas to make them more widely accepted?

Verna: Well, speaking of the world as a whole we think it just has to keep going on the way it is. Speaking specifically about the individual - you do very often have to be careful when you are talking to people. Just putting out the odd "feeler" when you are talking with your friends and acquaintances, when you are talking to see if you get a reaction. There are some people who will just totally reject anything, there is just no point in hammering away at them, you will only make that "wall" stronger. In that sort of situation, the only thing to do is to keep giving them light and accepting that is the way they are. "Accepting" is the only word I can think of using. If you keep on at them you will just put a barrier between - no-one likes to be forced into something. So just try to be aware of people who are receptive and perhaps need some prompting or help.

Norman: Yes, that's good phrase - receptive.

Verna: Do what you can for organizations who might increase the knowledge. A lot of it is simply your own awareness, the vibrations you carry with you.

Guy: We have talked before to what extent mischievous spirits are involved in mental disease or conditions like schizophrenia. Not all cases, but some cases it may be so.

Now, is it possible to get one of these possessing spirits from a schizophrenic patient, bring him here as a rescue person and by doing so, cure the patient.

Verna: Well, it can be done but it is a very difficult thing. Because the spirit will be clinging to the person, but the person is also clinging to the spirit. You will very often find that if you remove one spirit like that because of the person's attitude, another one will take its place.

Guy: But it would be possible to do.

Verna: Yes. it is possible but it is very difficult.

Angie: So you are saying that the person actually wanted that spirit? I understood that you could be in a vulnerable position, but not necessary want to be possessed. But you are suggesting that some people open themselves to that vulnerability.

Verna: The person has to co-operate.

Gina: Isn't it sometimes along the lines that person doesn't want to cope by themselves?

Verna: That comes into it too. Sometimes the person has heard about this type of thing and they want to have the contact. They will allow any contact, and accept it, because it makes them feel important, different, or something like that. They do it without discrimination.

Angie: So how would they know when a spirit attaches itself?

Verna: Well, they start hearing the voices or seeing things.

Norman: What you are really saying is that the individual person should use some form of discrimination and questioning?

Verna: Yes.

Norman: Question, always question

Verna: We like to see a questioning approach, especially in newcomers - not to the point, of course, of being negative or destructive, but to keep your individuality- because this is your life.

Norman: Questioning as to the extent of authority, where your guides comes from?

Verna: Yes. Or where the contact you are feeling is coming from. At least in the beginning.

Norman: What you are saying here is

that if the individual does not want to close off, and is not prepared to close off, and are continually open, then it literally invites anything to come in, anything at all.

Verna: Yes. This is why you should always start a meditation with a prayer.

Norman: Mmm... let light work it out...

Verna: Yes.

Guy: Its very difficult to distinguish. Some time ago we saw on television a true picture about multiple personality cases. I didn't think it was really doe to spirits. How can you tell the difference, what is due to spirit and what is your own sub-conscious splits? How can you tell? How can anybody tell, a doctor or a medium?

Verna: On the side of the doctor or whoever is trying to help- a lot of that sort of decision is made intuitively, by cognition - psychic cognition .

Norman: Would any studies in psychic healing be advantageous?

Verna: Anything which will - how can I put it - I am talking about strengthening the individuality, strengthening self-reliance, leading your own life. Don't give your life over to spirit, don't ask them to choose what you are going to wear in the morning or what have you got to have for breakfast, get used to making your own decisions.

Norman: Quite frequently they wouldn't answer anyway.

Verna: Yes, but if you ask them to tell you and they won't answer, you might get a mischievous spirit to answer. So there are times when it is appropriate to ask for help and its quite all right to say a little prayer to your guides - all right, look after me during the day. Give me appropriate guidance. It doesn't really matter to us what you wear - sometimes we might advise you to make a point of wearing a particular colour, that's about all.

As long as you are eating a sensible diet, well-balanced, we don't really mind what you have for breakfast. Sometimes we will give dietary advice for healing purposes

Gina: Dietary advice doesn't necessarily need to be followed, if you don't agree with it.

Verna: Yes, until you discover the consequences.

Gina: I still won't eat cabbage.

Verna: Well, just eat lots of other vegetables. I'll compromise with you. We'll settle for carrots, how about that? Raw!

Gina: I want to keep my teeth in one piece.

Verna: You strengthen your teeth by eating raw carrots. They are much nicer raw.

Norman: Advocating the raw food diet!

Verna: You will have to ask this medium to give you one of her carrots fresh out of the garden. If you eat it raw you will see what a real carrot tastes like.

Gina: I know what a real carrot tastes like, my mother gave them to me. The main thing is that you are given advice and it is up to you whether you take it or leave it. All you should offer is advice. Don't coerce anyone in any way whatsoever, and part of the self-reliance that Verna is talking about is that it is up to you to filter everything that is said through your basic system. Regardless of who said it, if you think it sounds like a bit of good advice, then adopt it for yourself if it is applicable. There's been a few people I disagree with and that stuff I totally ignore.

Verna: That's a good approach because if you can't accept it, just leave it to one side. You never know what you might accept next year. Just take what you need at the moment.

Norman: Perception and discernment should be changing all the time anyway.

Verna: It probably does.

Gina: Unless you get cynical.

Guy: You might like cabbage yet Gina.

Angie: I would like to know where you are at in your evolutionary process.

Verna: What evolutionary process?

Gina: How close are you to the Godness?

Verna: As close as ever. I'm as close as you are.

Gina: That doesn't say very much.

Verna: But you are Godness. Every cell of your body is Godness. Your consciousness is Godness.

Norman: Where were you in Sweden when you passed over?

Verna: In a snowdrift in a forest.

Norman: Anywhere near Stockholm?

Verna: I don't remember. This tongue can't get the name. Its frustrating at times. No, I was in the country.

Gina: You were a minister's daughter weren't you?

Verna: That's right. In a little village. And this tongue won't say it.

Angie: When was it?

Verna: Well, in your terms, about a hundred years ago. Well, you still haven't told me what sort of things you want in the circle.

Norman: Perhaps you could tell us what could be available.

Verna: Oh, well. You can have lots of talks. You can have more visits from Margaret McMurray and perhaps Anderson, and similar people. You can have meditation nights. You can have clairvoyance nights. You can try clairvoyance yourself, we are always willing to give other people a go. Some rescues. What else? What would you like?

Guy: Healing.

Verna: Yes, healing.

Norman: What you are suggesting is a very broad spectrum.

Verna: You see, if we know what you particularly want to do it helps us.

Norman: It helps us too.

Verna: Would you like to have a regular schedule? Or are you going to be lazy and leave it up to us? You see, the problem is that if you leave it up to us, you will keep getting the same old thing.

Norman: How about a regular schedule in consultation with you?

Verna: Of course, you see, we are always free not to follow it.

Gina: A rescue once a month.

Verna: Might be a bit too frequent. Not if we are going to do all the other stuff as well.

Norman: We should have a program. Where we can possibly all contribute.

Verna: We are quite happy to have nights when you do all the work.

Norman: As long as its programmed and we all know where we are.

Verna: As long as its not going to be too rigid.

Norman: I don't know what your interpretation of the word "rigid" is.

Verna: A strict unvarying schedule.

Norman: You have to allow for the unusual.

Verna: Yes. You see, just as you have the right to ignore our advice, we have the right to ignore your schedule. So you draw up the schedule, and we will follow it if we want.

Norman: That's biased. Because we could do the same thing and then we would have a state of anarchy.

Gina: Put it this way we don't have a hell of a lot of choice in the matter. What we get is what we get. All we do is put in requests.

Verna: But if we know what you like we can emphasise it a bit more. No, we'll be serious now.

Norman: Clairvoyance, psychometry, healing, we have occasionally a rescue

Verna: And the odd meditation night?

Norman: And the odd meditation night. I think it should be a balanced lot.

Verna: I think in some of those things you could have a ball of a time. I think particularly the meditation nights, they could be set. Do you want to have an occasional night where you try your own skills at clairvoyance, healing or whatever?

Norman: This would help the individual to understand his progress.

Verna: I think those two things should be on a fairly regular schedule.

Guy: Don't drop the talks altogether.

Verna: Oh, no. There is no fear of that with Jhannee, I can assure you, or Silver Moon. And Ah-So just said to say hello. He has been a bit busy this week with China. He followed Lao Tsu.

Norman: Have you also some spiritual speciality?

Verna: No, not yet. I am just an organiser.

Guy: You have a very famous country man, Swedenborg. Did you know about him when you were living?

Verna: No.

Guy: Have you come across him now in the Spirit World?

Verna: Yes, I even saw him on one occasion.

Guy: What is he up to now?

Verna: Much the same.

Guy: Writing big books or...

Verna: No, he has left that far beyond. He is a bit of a teacher. He doesn't sit there and tell them everything. He is much more able to help people to have their own experiences. He is - that is the only word I can think of - teaching.

Guy: He teaches in the Halls of Learning or something?

Verna: Yes. At least that is often where he starts off. Then he will toddle off and take his students with him. He helps a lot of people who have come over not realising that there is anything here you see. And then when they get to this point where they realise " Oh, yes, it was true after all", and they start to look around to see what's going on. he will very often take people at that point, help them in the Spirit World. I don't think he will be doing it very much longer.

Guy: I am very fond of some of his writings.

Norman: Is he going to reincarnate again?

Verna: No, he is going on.

Gina: Characteristics like clairvoyance and psychometry and things like that, all these things- if you view progression as a line- does things like doing psychometry come out on the side? They are not an end in themselves. The end in itself is to learn more compassion and more loving and more tolerance and acceptance of people regardless of what they do - you can condemn the act but not the person.

Verna: You see, with clairvoyance and associated activities it is all part of an opening up of yourself, of an expansion of your SELF. So its a sort of by-product of the other things. With the development of your love and compassion so you want to help these people, and developing clairvoyance is one way to do it.

Norman: Under the heading "clair" there are about four or five possible different subjects, each one has a particular gift in overall development and all that is a part of that individual's total evolvement. You start by developing one gift in particular.

Verna: You very often find after a while that the other gifts will start coming. You must never, ever, say you haven't got a particular gift.

Norman: So we will work out a plan to present to you to ask for your assistance. Have you done this before?

Verna: We've had a sort of a schedule in that we used to have the first Thursday in the month as sitters' night and we also used to have regular meditation nights.

Norman: What's sitters' nights?

Verna: That is when you have a go. Sometimes we gave exercises that we hoped would help you gain the confidence to use your gifts.

Norman: Were they successful?

Verna: Yes, sometimes, with some people.

Angie: I would have thought that most people who came here would have an open mind and be receptive.

Verna: Yes.

Gina: An open mind is not necessarily a pre-requisite to accepting.

Verna: Sometimes they have too much of an open mind.

Gina: Yes, too much of an open mind is basically gullible. You need a certain sense of cynicism and "I know where I am in this world".

Guy: In one ear and out the other, is also an open mind.


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